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Alas Andy, paraphrasing can be very precarious and in your case has been used to misrepresent what I said. I made the observation that there are some clubs that consider that local coaches are all that is required and in no way denigrated the abilities of local coaches and my reference to Muckamore was only to pour scorn on your assertion that all professionals are here as hired guns when I was well aware that even the professional in your own club is there also as a coach - or at least that was the information that I was trying to have you admit and despite the fact that you extolled his coaching abilities you failed to confirm that he is more than a hired gun at your club; however I think I know better and there is no need to dwell on that.

This all leaves your powers of observation needing correction for myopia. If you can't even correctly observe that your own professional is more than a hired gun then what faith can we put in your observations elsewhere? As for the things were better in the past and there was so much more cricket in the past, I'm afraid that's a mixture of rose tinted spectacles and the rise of the technological age... ah the myth of the good old days, next you'll be telling me that school days are the best years of your life.

I'm well aware of the many coaching activities going on at Muckamore both through the press and from other members and for the record Derriaghy have put out 4 teams (without prestidigitation of course) on a Saturday on a regular basis over the past few seasons and problems this year are only a temporary blip I believe.

At the end of your piece you state that there have been many more professionals that are hired guns than coaches over the years. Can you share with us all your evidence base so that we can be sure that it is not another observation plucked out of the air.

not "preaching" Stuart - just casting a jaundiced eye on the overall regression of NCU cricket since 1959. Funnily enough Mr. Angry & I were comparing notes over a few scoops at Moylena a couple of weeks ago and we came to the same conclusion. I know others will come on and talk about the progress of Cricket Ireland, etc. but the reality in club cricket is different. How many sections do we have now - 13? Bit different from the days when every senior club fielded 4 XIs - and in some cases 5! A similar malaise that exists in rugby but as long as Ulster do well the clubs can go hang.

Speaking from what I know at Derriaghy I'm happy with our record on this issue. We've invested massively in ground facilities with new covers and a massive net at the roadside being notable. Otherwise there's no point in bringing high quality players and coaches in an it's most certainly not a village green. Our successful period on the pitch whilst in the pl also brought success off it. With implementation of a youth structure that wasn't there before. I'm not embarrassed or ashamed that we've used overseas coaches to achieve this. Andy your points have their merit but trying a one coat fits all simply won't work. Clubs will do What they see is in their own selfish and strategic Interest and rightly so. I don't really see why you think you can preach to others on how to spend their money or portray it as a morally reprehensible act. Each to their own I say. Pro or no pro, hired gun or coach we all strive to make our own clubs as successful as possible.

David Edward makes some points that merit a response. He refers to those clubs, and here I paraphrase from his posting, in the dark ages believing that local coaches are the answer. I direct his attention to the David Holmes article on Parkhall School and the contribution of Glen Martin over the past decade. The fact that this hasn't trumpeted this from the rooftops means that Glen hasn't received the NCU recognition that he richly deserves for his contribution to cricket. To say that Kammy was a coach "within the limitations of the available youth" speaks more about his previous club than his coaching ability. There was a degree of mickey- taking when Andy McCullough and others took over a vacant unit at Junction One and ran a cricket camp a couple of years ago was only part continuing youth developemnt. This introduced cricket to the wider Antrim community and indeed there were visitors from as far away as "the hub of the North". As Ivan Mccombe pointed out Muckamore was able to field 4 teams on a recent Sunday - and no juggling of the "starring system" involved. And irrespective of the results, Muckamore teams will be contesting 6 - yes 6 - cup finals with two other teams falling at the sem-final stage. Somebody must be doing something right! I'm not sure how David can extrapolate comments to the extent that he has. For 40+ years we have been fed the line about professionals as "coaches" and undoubtedly there have been many who made a contribution. However there is a much larger number who have taken millions of £s out of the country without much to show for it. I note that in past instances of a pro being injured and returning home in, say mid- August there is a scramble to get a replacement. Hardly to ensure that the clubs' coaching programmes are continued! With certain notable exceptions, we play on pitches not far removed from village greens. Some clubs have blazed a trail in obtaining public finance for ground improvements. What a difference it would have made if the money paid to pros had been re-directed to ground improvements across the province.

David,
Too many big words for the Buckna man!
Some good points, but do all overseas professionals coach and is there any monitoring process? What about a summary of the pros who never coached to balance the debate? Also, I recall the days when the Pro and his mate were hired.
Stuart is right but unfortunately after 43 years we still have a divided camp on professionals and I doubt if it will ever change.

Can the ICC not sort the exodus of players from their birth nations? Rankin is the latest ot put his cards on the table with his desire to play for England. As an England supporter I find it somewhat embarrassing that we are seen to be the scapegoats. If they are making themselves available and are good enough then the selectors cannot ignore them. Surely the time has come to change it now, especially if the associated nations have a chance of playing to a higher level? At the moment there is no incentive for Cricket Ireland to bring throguh emerging talent.

Well said Stuart. How a Club goes about their business is entirely up to them so long as they don't break any rules or laws in the process.

With respect to overseas players, different clubs have different approaches and different requirements and those with overseas players will always be slated at every opportunity by those that either can't attract overseas players or are still living in the dark ages in the belief that home grown coaches are able to nuture all the talent on the island and somehow create a test playing nation; and of course there are always the omnipotent trolls.

I can only speak from my own experience which spans the period from no professionals to the current period when every club would like to have one. I've had to listen the Derriafrica brigade, mainly from a couple of miles towards Belfast, who, not being associated with Derriaghy, failed to notice the work done by the Saffers in coaching within a youth structure that is the envy of many. Indeed Albert has since gone on to give Leinster the benefit of his coaching and personal skills and I'm sure I'm not alone in mourning his loss to us. There was also the CSNZ jag but Nigel Jones does some sterling work as a Cricket Ireland/NCU development officer and I'm sure he's improved many a cricketter at CSNI also.

Purely because of a certain Buckna resident I shall also mention Muckamore and Ballymena. Ballymena have the affectionately known "Alfie" whom I know from his time at Derriaghy where he was a much liked and respected coach, particularly within the youth structure; again a great loss for us but the lure of first class cricket in his home country was understandable. With the reputation of Ballymena men for their thriftiness I can't see him suddenly being a hired gun alone. And finally there's Kammy at Muckamore. Whilst at Dunmurry he was extremely sucessful as a hired gun but he was also coaching within the limitations of the available youth. Extrapolating the Buckna resident's reasoning presumably means that he has now just become a hired gun because all pros are only there to play; I doubt that.

Clubs should spend their money what ever way they want tbh. Pros bring more to a club than just their playing ability in my view. I know many people at my club that have benefitted from overseas coaching and continue to. I also think a pro adds to a clubs fabric for however long h is there. But my main point would be nobody is in a position to tell a club how to spend their money.

fluter makes valid points. I think the myth of the professional "coach" has been well and truly laid. Perhaps if some of that money had been spent in equipment to assist in drying pitches during the past season of inclement weather may have meant less games being called off.

Im a keen follower of Victoria Cricket Club in Lurgan so the question of pro's will never really be an issue for us. I know many on here seem to be fed up with the debate but i would be very much for them. Surely in general they are of a better standard than what generally plays in the leagues. Do players not learn from these guys with different styles of play, attitudes etc. Surely also they are involved in the coaching side of things and are improving the youth sections anyway. In my opinion to succeed kids need the attitude to do well and not necessarily a fancy set up to do it in so if a pro is the way a team decides to go then good for them i say. I only wish Victoria could afford one!

Re: Junior Cup Final

Firstly let me say well done to Cooke Collegians on their win. On the day a much better team than Lisburn.

I would like to echo the comments on CIYMS and their hosting of the cup final - the grounds looked beautiful especially considering the rain, and surely their aren't any better facilities in the country. This was my first time at Belmont and was very impressed by the facilities, car parking,, bar area and the very clean toilet facilities.

Surely Belmont would be a worthy host of the Senior Cup or Irish Cup Final?

The pro debate strikes again...This is the first season for yrs that HCC havnt had a paid overseas player simply because we cant afford one.
Obviously we are struggling near the bottom of div 1, and have been on the receiving end of pro-sided defeats.If we are safe for next season, i dont see us spending money on a pro just to keep us up..instesd were are looking at spending our funds on our youth section.
My question is why other clubs spend on pros ?? Is it to stay in div 1 or is it to gain promotion into the premier lge ?? If its the case of staying in div 1, then maybe all clubs should agree to go without pros and spend their funds elsewhere

Would like to thank Lisburn 2's for the sporting manner and professional attitude on Saturday at Junior Cup Final. Also congratulations to CIYMS for being excellent hosts. May just need to lower windows in scorebox. Finally well done to Louis Arneill and Kevin McConville. As usual the umpires and scorers are the unsung people at a match but both umpires did a fine job and ensured an excellent game of cricket for the large crowd.

Overseas Pro, Local Pro, No Pro? - what about we just leave this one up to each individual Club to decide and get on with club cricket in the NCU....weather permitting

Davy McD - "quite a few girls in my younger days"!! Tell us more you old dog!!! To be serious - what a great day today for sunshine and cricket played with the sun on one's back. Cracking game at Holywood with almost 450 runs scored. All credit to Messrs. McCormick for their work.