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Michael,

Those are very interesting stats you have produced within your article.

Amazed to see Waringstown as low as that but as Wylie righly points out, there have to be other circumstances taken into account when assessing these stats. No surprise to see North Down at the top as they have been the dominant force for a long time now on what must be superb wickets.

All this chat has got my juices going again for local cricket and i think i may take in a few games this coming year to make sure my assesments from news articles/websites and old playing colleagues are correct!

I'll ask my question for a second time though to Wylie if i may, and see if he responds this time. What clubs put their names forward for the NCU Senior Cup Final 2011?

Michael

Surely you need to factor in the second innings scores as well and calculate a "runs per over per ground" (based on the two scores) sort of thing as well as take in to account other factors affecting a teams score.

The reason I say this is:

Scenario One: Larne are the best team in their league and all the rest are rubbish – they win the toss in each match at glorious Sandy Bay and put the opposition in and bowl them out for under 100 each time. This would mean the average score for Sandy Bay is less than 100, ridiculous I know, but there you are, the figures say so that Sandy Bay is not a good batting ground.

Scenario Two: Larne are the best team in their league and all the rest are rubbish – they win the toss in each match at Sandy Bay and bat first passing at least 250 each time. This would mean the average score for Sandy Bay is more than 250, so the figures say Sandy Bay is a great batting ground.

What I am trying to say is that based on your method there are other factors (other than the ground condition) that need to be taken in to account when calculating runs per ground – eg. Strength of opposition, weather conditions, umpires (?)

Any one else got other thoughts?

I'm not sure if this will add anything to the debate, but the average first innings scores for top-division club grounds in 2010 are published here: http://www.cricketeurope4.net/DATABASE/ARTICLES3/articles/000048/004886.shtml

Brendan, you took the words out of my mouth.
Andy, I'm sure James was not being personal.
On another note I played golf with Frannie Lee and Paul Hanby from Leinster CC this morning and it is amazing how much fun three "has-beens" can still enjoy through the medium of sport. Looking forward to linking up with George Dockrell next week when Somerset arrive in Barbados for the Twenty20 finals. Good kid with great potential.

I am convinced Lisburn will do the Senior Cup proud and be fantastic hosts. The new extended ground looks great and geographically is a great location. I think after this Final there will be a clamour for Lisburn to be regular hosts. My hunch is weather permitting we will get a record crowd. There must be a sponsor out there somewhere. Who's looking and does anyone know the sums involved ?

Is that really true James?
Have we so many superstars in local cricket these days?
Surely they still only win a few cups?
Play for the shirt yes, but it is still only a game.
Enjoy it as the playing years pass quickly and then you have only memories.

Interesting debate re Cup Final venues. Our amateur game is for the players and for me players should decide on cricket matters.
Hopefully the grounds selected for the NCU finals do the business so lets hope for a brilliant summer to accompany our showcase events of 2011.

James makes a point about "most sucessful teams/players". Conversely, Clarence, that makes you a "most unsucessful player"!! Maybe he should invest in a copy of the North Down book!!!

Funny how the most successful teams/players never say 'it's only a game'...

regarding earlier postings about shared grounds - if the criteria was that such grounds should be excluded then the only ones that would come into the reckoning are the likes of Waringstown, North Down, Muckamore & Lisburn. As Wylie points out, the reality is that few clubs "offer". With regard to "low scores" at the Lisburn ground - it will be remembered that the outfield is considerably larger following ground improvements that incorporated part of the cycle track that I, as a wee lad, in the company of the Wisemans, used to watch the McCloys, Messrs. Bowden, Martin, etc. (we had to watch from outside as we spent the admission money -something else that has long disappeared - on sweets!) As pointed out elsewhere- it is only a game. Some posters who get a bit "precious" about pitches,etc, should remember that a limited amount of cricket in Ireland is only a step up from village cricket and the rest is very much village cricket. So let's get real about this.

I think the NCU could make things easier with a review of the grounds grading system.
As Wylie states, both Lisburn and CIYMS are Premier League grounds so they have therefore passed a stringent set of guidelines.
Firstly, there are plenty observers out there who think the criteria should be much tougher and secondly, should it not be the case that for the biggest matches there should be another band of grounds above Grade 1?
I actually think that part of the problem is that grounds have to be Grade 1 to be in the Premier League.
The NCU has graded a lot of lesser grounds ‘1’ to enable them to play in the PL and then has to give similar grounds also a ‘1’.
I think it is nonsense to suggest that there are about 15 Grade 1 grounds all of the same standard across the union! (ie The Lawn, Waringstown is just the same as Eaton Park, Ballymena)
Surely a system of rating from maybe 1-10 would be better with a grading of 1, 2, 3 or 4 eligible for the PL. What you can do then however is say that the Junior Cup final should be played at a Grade 2 ground or above, and the Challenge Cup Final should be at a Grade 1 ground etc…

Interesting debate re Cup Final Venues and I can see both sides of the argument (for once).
I think that if Lisburn wanted to host the Challenge Cup Final in their 175th year then they should have made it clear to the NCU a couple of years ago and made the necessary improvements in the intervening period. I mean, the covers they have don’t even fully cover the pitch…
Statistics can usually be manipulated to argue any case but would it be fair to say that for the last few seasons the scores at Wallace Park have REGULARLY been quite low?
Would the ECB take their showpiece final from Lord’s to Derby just because of a landmark? I think not.
What Lisburn has bucket loads of is character which will hopefully save the day if the pitch is a slow green top!
CIYMS may not be the finished article but they have shown great ambition and should be applauded for that. They still need to work very hard on the pitch and outfield however, and it has to be said that Mr McMillan playing there last year may have had something to do with some of the high scores.
Best of luck to both clubs who I’m sure will do their best come the time.

Re: Paul
Sorry you think that its was a silly retort but your original comments have upset a large number of people, especially from someone who no longer plays. Both Lisburn and CI finished in the top 4 of the league in 2010, so their wickets can't be that bad! Please check the NCU records for the top scoring grounds during 2010 and you will see Belmont figuring quite highly. I believe that each and every club has the right to apply for a cup final, so why shouldn't the big days shared round?

Interesting debate on cup final venues.
25 years ago the NCU and Lisburn CC celebrated their 100 and 150 years milestones respectively with a heavy program of events. Both were huge organizational challenges and at the helm was Lisburn guru Cecil Walker. We now have similar milestones and the NCU quite rightly has honoured the Lisburn members for a one-off celebration. Nobody is saying Lisburn has the best ground these days but over the years we have all enjoyed splendid facilities and great hospitality at the Park. I know Mr Cricket is 25 years older (like us all) but when I spoke to him a few months ago he was so enthusiastic about the cup final and the plans ahead so I have no doubt the Lisburn members will not be found wanting. Venue is only one aspect of the final. The cup needs a sponsor, more publicity, corporate entertaining, a dedicated organizational committee and a much bigger buzz on the day. However, as far as venue this year is concerned, sometimes we need to look at the bigger picture and remember this is only a game.

Paul,

Obviously you don't play, as Waringstown and Downpatrick are certainly not ROADS, but North Down certainly is!